Put on Your Hermeneutic Hat
Ok fellows, I have been reading through the book of Ecclesiastes the last couple of nights before bed. As I have read through it, several things stood out to me. Solomon (assuming he wrote it) had done pretty everything to happiness and joy and contentment in life, and everything he tried had failed him. Ok, no big surprise here. We would all agree that true joy and contentment comes from the Lord. Fine. Then come the tricky part. I keep running into peculiar statements about death. At times, Solomon seems to be pointing to life and judgment after death. Others, however, he is indicating that the grave or Sheol is the end. So, we need to work together to help me properly exgete these passages. I am going to put down the apparently contradictory passages at the end of this post. Let me know how you would approach them. Remember as "iron sharpens iron, one man sharpens another." (Proverbs 27:17) Make me sharper. By the way, I haven't looked at any commentaries.
"Moreover, I saw under the sun that in the place of justice, even there was wickedness, and in the place of righteousness, even there was wickedness. I said in my heart, God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for there is a time for every matter and for every work." - Ecc. 3:16-17
"I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts. For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return. Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?" - Ecc. 3:18-21
"Be not rash with your mouth, nor let your heart be hasty to utter a word before God, for God is in heaven and you are on earth. Therefore let your words be few." - Ecc. 5:2
"Even though he should live a thousand years twice over, yet enjoy no good--do not all go to the one place?" - Ecc. 6:6
"Though a sinner does evil a hundred times and prolongs his life, yet I know that it will be well with those who fear God, because they fear before him. But it will not be well with the wicked, neither will he prolong his days like a shadow, because he does not fear before God." - Ecc. 8:12-13
"It is the same for all, since the same event happens to the righteous and the wicked, to the good and the evil, to the clean and the unclean, to him who sacrifices and him who does not sacrifice. As is the good, so is the sinner, and he who swears is as he who shuns an oath. This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead. But he who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten?" - Ecc. 9:2-5
"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going." - Ecc. 9:10
"So if a person lives many years, let him rejoice in them all; but let him remember that the days of darkness will be many. All that comes is vanity. " - Ecc. 11:8
"Rejoice, O young man, in your youth, and let your heart cheer you in the days of your youth. Walk in the ways of your heart and the sight of your eyes. But know that for all these things God will bring you into judgment." - Ecc. 11:9
"Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, before the evil days come and the years draw near of which you will say, "I have no pleasure in them"; before the sun and the light and the moon and the stars are darkened and the clouds return after the rain, in the day when the keepers of the house tremble, and the strong men are bent, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those who look through the windows are dimmed, and the doors on the street are shut--when the sound of the grinding is low, and one rises up at the sound of a bird, and all the daughters of song are brought low-- they are afraid also of what is high, and terrors are in the way; the almond tree blossoms, the grasshopper drags itself along, and desire fails, because man is going to his eternal home, and the mourners go about the streets-- before the silver cord is snapped, or the golden bowl is broken, or the pitcher is shattered at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern, and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." - Ecc.12:1-7
"The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil." - Ecc. 12:13-14
Ok, I know that is a lot. So, take your time and give a brother a hand. Thanks.
"Moreover, I saw under the sun that in the place of justice, even there was wickedness, and in the place of righteousness, even there was wickedness. I said in my heart, God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for there is a time for every matter and for every work." - Ecc. 3:16-17
"I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts. For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return. Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?" - Ecc. 3:18-21
"Be not rash with your mouth, nor let your heart be hasty to utter a word before God, for God is in heaven and you are on earth. Therefore let your words be few." - Ecc. 5:2
"Even though he should live a thousand years twice over, yet enjoy no good--do not all go to the one place?" - Ecc. 6:6
"Though a sinner does evil a hundred times and prolongs his life, yet I know that it will be well with those who fear God, because they fear before him. But it will not be well with the wicked, neither will he prolong his days like a shadow, because he does not fear before God." - Ecc. 8:12-13
"It is the same for all, since the same event happens to the righteous and the wicked, to the good and the evil, to the clean and the unclean, to him who sacrifices and him who does not sacrifice. As is the good, so is the sinner, and he who swears is as he who shuns an oath. This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead. But he who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten?" - Ecc. 9:2-5
"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going." - Ecc. 9:10
"So if a person lives many years, let him rejoice in them all; but let him remember that the days of darkness will be many. All that comes is vanity. " - Ecc. 11:8
"Rejoice, O young man, in your youth, and let your heart cheer you in the days of your youth. Walk in the ways of your heart and the sight of your eyes. But know that for all these things God will bring you into judgment." - Ecc. 11:9
"Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, before the evil days come and the years draw near of which you will say, "I have no pleasure in them"; before the sun and the light and the moon and the stars are darkened and the clouds return after the rain, in the day when the keepers of the house tremble, and the strong men are bent, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those who look through the windows are dimmed, and the doors on the street are shut--when the sound of the grinding is low, and one rises up at the sound of a bird, and all the daughters of song are brought low-- they are afraid also of what is high, and terrors are in the way; the almond tree blossoms, the grasshopper drags itself along, and desire fails, because man is going to his eternal home, and the mourners go about the streets-- before the silver cord is snapped, or the golden bowl is broken, or the pitcher is shattered at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern, and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." - Ecc.12:1-7
"The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil." - Ecc. 12:13-14
Ok, I know that is a lot. So, take your time and give a brother a hand. Thanks.
posted by Michael D. Estes at 8:25 AM
10 Comments:
Michael,
What did you do to fix this blog a while back? Mine is doing the same thing, although I can enter it from Explorer, but not Firefox. I'll get in on this discussion too. Thanks
Charlie,
First, try to republish your blog. If that doesn't do it, post and then republish it. Good luck with that.
Thanks.
When Solomon seems to state that Sheol is the end, I think He is stating that we all go to Sheol, or the grave.
Some may say, "well when believers die, we immediately go into the presence of the Lord." I'm not so sure about that.
Before you stone me, listen to me for a second. Yes, Jesus told the thief "And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." (luke 23:43). But wait a second, who put that comma there? There was no punctuation in Koine Greek...so it is very possible that Jesus said, "Truly I say to you today, you shall be with me in Paradise."
Therefore, with this interpretation, when one dies, he's dead. There is no immediate presence with the Lord (personally, this freaks me out). In my opinion Solomon's words are consistent with this interpretation of Luke and with OT language of OT saints going to 'sleep.' Also, in 1 Cor. Paul talks about the 'dead in Christ' rising first. Well if someone is already with Jesus in Paradise, where would they rise from?
I think all of this lends more evidence to a post-tribulation rapture. The tribulation occurs...then then dead in Christ rise. Their soul has been 'asleep' and they rise and eventually get new bodies.
Ok, now throw stones.
Charlie,
Are you advocating soul sleep? Because I was having a conversation with someone else the other day and we agreed that it was simply a matter of progressive revelation. What do you think about that alternative?
If anyone else out there would like to comment, it would be appreciated.:)
I'm not sure if i'm advocating that or not. All I know about soul sleep is that my theology professor said that it didn't happen. What verses point to no soul sleep? If it's clearly not biblical, then i'll tweak my position.
Alright, in light of Hebrews 11 and the first few verses of Hebrews 12, if 'the great cloud of witnesses' is referring to those in Heaven, then I don't ascribe to soul sleep. I can't think of what else that 'great cloud' could be.
Well,
I'm glad I could be of service to you. By the way, I think we should rename the blog. How does this sound? One in Christ with your hosts Charlie and Michael.:)
Sounds good to me. I thought I was about to have a conversation with my self.
I resent that comment. I'm just not posting because I want to shamelessly mimic the non-happenings at Together for the Gospel's blog. Mark Dever has posted the last four or five in a row; it's kind of sad.
P.S. Mark Dever rocks.
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